What, Exactly, Did He Say?
Here's what he said on The 700 Club, on January 13th:
“Something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it,” Robertson said on his Christian Broadcasting Network show. “They were under the heel of the French … and they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, ‘We will serve you if you’ll get us free from the French.’ “True story. And the devil said, ‘OK, it’s a deal,”‘ Robertson said. “Ever since, they have been cursed by one thing after another.”
French historians were quick to point out the flaws in his history lesson.
Is That Sort of Thing in the Bible?
Christianity does not work this way. No part of scripture tells us that God intends to allow natural disasters to overcome any country that involves themselves in sin. Obviously, if things worked this way the Nazis could not have come into power, Stalin would have been struck by lightening, and nations that broadcast pornography during prime time would suffer yearly droughts.
No, there's no precedent for this nonsense in Christianity. Sure, in the Old Testament God punished people as he saw fit, but the Bible doesn't establish a predictable formula for this sort of thing; in fact, His preferred method was to establish good relations with those nations. (See Jonah, for example.)
A lot of questions are unanswered. For starters, how did a bunch of Haitians find the Devil? Does he have a house around there, or is there a way to summon him that French slaves were privy to? Pat Robertson never works this stuff out and the Bible doesn't make it clear that this sort of thing is even possible. The whole story is ridiculous and sounds more like pagan mythology than any part of Christianity.
So...Where Does Pat Robertson Get This Stuff?Pat Robertson makes news every few months with failed predictions of the future; he has predicted natural disasters and terror attacks that never materialized - often accompanied by the phrase "...that is, if I heard God correctly..." (I don't remember Isaiah ever saying that.) Other times, he is issuing condemnations, like claiming that homosexuals were responsible for Hurricane Katrina; this is a ridiculous notion that is not supported by any statement in the Bible. We are expected to take Robertson's word for it that he is God's prophet, but none of his "prophecies" come true.
So, I don't know where he is coming from. He's certainly not talking about the God that is worshiped at local churches all over the world, nor is he discussing things that are founded in the Bible. The church fathers didn't talk this way, and, for that matter, neither did the villains of the inquisition.
I'm glad that Pat Robertson raised money for Haiti (which is what he was doing when he made these statements), but his message is not the same one that comes from the Bible. I'm not sure what he's doing.
I also don't know who's listening to him; in my entire life, I've never met anyone, in church or elsewhere, who didn't roll their eyes when his name was mentioned.
(Update: Welcome Instapundit readers! Thanks, Glenn.)
58 comments:
Well put. Jesus would most likely have encouraged Mr. Robertson to learn to value silence. God is beyond our comprehension...even if we are "successful" evangelical ministers.
Tune in Van Nuys, CA
lost in the byzantine logic of robertson is the fact that whhile we laugh him off the stage, haitians will buy this crap up.
"lost in the byzantine logic of robertson is the fact that whhile we laugh him off the stage, haitians will buy this crap up."
And what "crap" is that? That they (like everyone all over the world) would be better off with a closer relationship with God? You mean that crap???
For some reason I think of the Jonah story - the part at the end -- where God is asking Jonah why he has the right to be angry. Jonah is angry because it's obvious to him that God should not care about Ninevah because they are so evil. God tells Jonah, "Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?"
Psalm 86:15
"But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness".
God has a purpose and a plan for everything He allows to happen. I pray for His mercy to be poured out in Haiti. We are so tiny and fragile in this universe, and our lives are brief compared to the vast eternity that is God. He is too big for our minds to contemplate properly, and yet He loved us so much that He became one of us.
Ellie, "...they (like everyone all over the world) would be better off with a closer relationship with God? You mean that crap???"
um, ...what? that's what you comprehend from the statement of anonymous? what are you smoking?
how about the crap that robertson is speaking. anonymous said nothing about being closer to
God.
crap=divine retribution.
job is a pretty depp book of the bible.
(please ignore the above if you are jewish)
please do not construe the crap to apply to religion in general. Even as an atheist, I still find that the only instruction of social morality comes from religion.
yea, god.
I've begun to think of Pat Robertson as the crazy old uncle who was a hero in the war, and so has to be invited to family dinners, but you just hope and pray he doesn't embarrass himself and everyone else with his ramblings.
Russ, that's exactly how one of my good friends just described him - that crazy uncle we try to ignore.
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
Why would Haitians buy Robertson's crap while we don't? Are they more gullible? Please explain. As for God being 'beyond our comprehension', that is lazy thinking. Like anything, we try to understand as much as we can while not likely to know everything.
Thank you for linking back to me Adam, all the best to you, your friends, family and readers!
Thanks for the post. I posted this on Facebook: Pat Robertson, please shut up!
It started a huge debate with a group of my friends. But, frankly, the man's theology is off and he needs to be held to account.
If we believe God is sovereign then He is the one who is ultimately responsible for calamities like this and He allows them to accomplish His glory.
Yes, even suffering and death are tools God uses to glorify Himself. I praise God for the response of sane and common sense Christians like to to rebuke Pat for his ill informed and foolish statements.
"Are they more gullible?"
before election 2008, I would have given an unqualifed "yes".
In my opinion, it is not that Pat Robertson is so much incorrect in theology, but a false prophet as attested by his many failed attempts. God's prophets were known to be completely accurate; Pat is not. And even if Pat is right, he should reread Ecclesiastes and learn the lesson of a time an season for everything.
However, this statement is theologically incorrect: As for God being 'beyond our comprehension', that is lazy thinking. Like anything, we try to understand as much as we can while not likely to know everything.
I am reminded of exactly what God tells us our in capability of "understanding" in the verse "My ways are not your ways and my thoughts not your thoughts; as heaven is above earth, my ways are above yours."
I disagree with Robinson but your statement is theologically incorrect.
Re-read Deuteronomy Chapters 29 & 30 and you will specifically see a blessing or a curse offered to Israel and the formula was rather predictable.
As I've already blogged Robinson is ignoring scripture as well in his idiotic rant but that's no reason to get it wrong as well.
Other than that small correction your post is spot on.
First of all, however PR garbled it, his basic story on Haitian history is one that has had general currency for a long time. You can read it in Wikipedia--not exactly an organ of the Religious Right. The story goes that in 1791 the Haitian rebels launched their revolt with dedication to a voodoo spirit, replete with blood sacrifice and a possessed priestess.
Second, PR never said God sent this earthquake to punish Haiti. He grieves the poverty and misery that he believes has been brought on Haiti by 200 hundred years of practicing their syncretic mix of catholic/voodoo/demonic/animist worship. He seems to think that if they repented and received Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior that life in Haiti would be considerably better. Think he's wrong? Anyone want to argue that Haiti wouldn't be immeasurably better off had they been, say, garden variety Presbyterians for the past 200 years instead?
As for God and earthquakes and other natural disasters, actually the Bible makes clear that there is a connection. You might try googling up John Piper's article for World magazine on the 1999 earthquake in Turkey. And no, this is not just an OT thing--see Rev. 11:13.
Finally, I'm tired of this postmodern meme that we can't understand God. The Isaiah reference is specious. The "my ways/your ways...my thoughts/your thoughts" is an introduction to God teaching us his thoughts and his ways.
Granted, we can't know Him perfectly--but--the whole purpose of God's revelation in Scripture is precisely so that we would know His mind, His plans, who He is, who we are--He even condescended to incarnate as one of us to make it absolutely clear. Can any believer read the Bible cover to cover and then say they have no idea what the mind of God is? If that's meant to advertise humility, then it is a false humility. The promise of Scripture is that we will be transformed from within by His Spirit and know the will of God.
Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
You ask where does Robertson get this stuff? Try Haitian lore and current Haitian politics. Robertson's connection to Haiti comes through the mission work of evangelical missionaries. In this context the age old war of Christianity vs. Satanism, so prevalent in Haitian lore, informs his view.
Strangely, and quite ironically, Robertson's comments may sound mad to cultured Western ears but they are well understood in Haiti. Look up the HAVIDEC movement in Haiti. It's a political-religious movement in Haiti that states as its main goal "taking back Haiti from Satan." It formed as a response to the regime of Aristide, a man who gave governmental imprimatur to voodoo and even re-newed the Boukman ritual of 1791 - the one that, in popular tellings of Haitian lore, the Haitian revolutionaries made a pact with the devil. So, this whole devil-pact stuff seems like it's coming out of left field if you are hearing it as an American. Not so, if you are a Haitian.
One thing is certain: Haitian society needs a huge dose of reform. This earthquake highlights the continued tragedy of a people brought to their knees in so many ways. They've got it all: floods, famines, plagues, desertification, you name it. Now, an earthquake which pancaked their ill-prepared old masonary structures and killed untold thousands. Haiti is a biblical disaster in so many ways.
The only possible way Haiti escapes this cycle of doom is by an inward movement of cultural change. I pray for an awakening of the Haitian people to these realities, and that they will arise to construct a better place than the one they just lost.
Great blog. I think you cleared up some things for me regarding this issue. I was just wondering what you think about Voodoo. You say that one question you have is how did a couple Haitians find the devil, does he have a house there. I have always been of the opinion that voodoo does have some satanic elements to it - even though I will say I have not investigated it very thoroughly. Thanks!
TO: Adam D. Jones
RE: Well....
Is That Sort of Thing in the Bible?
Christianity does not work this way. No part of scripture tells us that God intends to allow natural disasters to overcome any country that involves themselves in sin. -- Adam D. Jones
Christian ethic do not work the way of God when He's totally 'disappointed', i.e., angry.
My Mens' Bible Study group was grappling with this question yesterday morning.
Someone brought up that it is not the Christian's responsibility to punish. That it's not part of our 'duty description'.
However, who are WE to tell God what to do?
RE: Statistically Speaking
It would be interesting to look at all the places where natural, and possibly man-made, disasters have resulted in many people dead. With an eye on the comportment of the people and/or government.
Look at the Day-After-Christmas quake-tsunami in the Indian Ocean. Look at the Northfield quake. Look at Katrina. Look at Haiti.
It doesn't take a practicioner of IPB [Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefied, as taught at the Command and General Staff College] to notice an emerging pattern here.
But I'm open to suggestions as to places with more Christ-like believers that have sustained similar disasters.
RE: Why It Happened in Haiti?
My personal opinion....if anybody cares....is that God may or may not have caused this disaster. But I suspect that God may have just removed his protection from the place. And let Satan have his way with it. Like he did with Job. To what purpose, I do not know. All I can do is conjecture.
And then there are the 'miraculous' savings of Christians.
In the Indian Ocean incident, the Christians in an Muslim dominated town were not allowed to celebrate the holiday on Christmas Day. So the next day they went up to a mountain to celebrate. While they were up there, the tsunami came in and wiped out their town, sparing them.
I've heard a report—unconfirmed at this point—that a group of Christian-based aid workers were up on the rooftop of their building when the quake hit in Haiti. The building collapsed under them and they walked off safely.
Happy New Year,
Chuck(le)
[Coincidence, n., When God works a miracle and doesn't get the credit.]
I fully agree with the last two comments both at 2:37am. I don't know much about Mr Robertson but we need to avoid firstly misunderstanding what he said here and secondly objecting just on politically correct grounds because we aren't used to this type of talk in today's humanist-led society.
I agree with him that countries like Egypt and Haiti are dirt poor today largely because they refuse(d) to submit to Christ.
Adam, your attitude is shared by many. A local columinst echoed your views. Here are mine.
Revealing Faith via Haiti
Pat said:
…something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it, they were under the heel of the French, uh, you know, Napoleon the third and whatever, and they got together and swore a pact to the devil, they said, we will serve you, if you get us free from the French, true story. And so the devil said, 'OK, it's a deal.' And they kicked the French out, the Haitians revolted and got themselves free, and ever since they have been cursed by one thing after the other, desperately poor. . .
You call his comments foolish and un-biblical. It's easy and fun to put Pat down because if we do, we gain the approval of lots of people who could not care less about God or his word.
My view on the controversy surrounding Pat's statement centers on my experience that there are (at least) two kinds of Christians: those who believe in a “Just God” – a Jonathan Edwards kind of God - and those who believe that “God is love.”
The story of the Haitian's "Pact with the Devil" is well known. A quick Google search of “Haiti's pact with the devil” brings up 52,000 references. I have heard it mentioned enough that I immediately knew what Robertson was talking about. And I’m not surprised that Pat Robertson has heard of it and used it to make his point. For an article that debunks this as a fable, there is an on-line article by a Haitian churchman at BlackandChristian.com.
However, I want to specifically contrast your and Robertson’s theological view of Christianity. While I believe that Robertson may well have been taken in a by a fable, his analysis is grounded in a “just God” theology found in both the old and new testaments. If Robertson believes the story about a pact with the Devil, (and I believe that Robertson is a Bible believing literalist who believes in a God who is active in the universe today) his view is that of a God that punished His “chosen people” Israel for departing from his ways. Unless the God of the Old Testament has taken early retirement, it is entirely logical to attribute the horrors that have befallen Haiti – even before the earthquake – to a punishment for a particularly grievous sin: a pact with the Devil that explains the Voodoo practices of many in Haiti.
Forgive me if I am reading too much into what you wrote but your theology is of a more modern kind. One in which God is a sweet and rather saccharine creator of the universe. Who loves puppies and little children, pick us up when we fall down and never-ever judges us or turns His back. This is the God who was referred to as “God the Almighty Patsy.” He’s the God who sent his Son to die for us on the cross in redemption for our sins … but since he is such a loving, forgiving Soul, it’s hard to figure out why He bothered.
I'm totally at a loss to understand your references to Pat's God preventing either the Nazis or Stalin from coming to power. Perhaps you can expand on that.
Whatever your theology, I hope that we can all agree that bringing relief to the suffering people of Haiti is a worthy goal.
I liked the comment about Robertson being the "crazy uncle" except he wasn't a "war hero". According to one source quoted in Wikipedia, he was spared combat duty due to the influence of his father.
After thinking about his history of off the wall comments, he reminds me of a certain college basketball coach who coached for many years in my home state of Indiana.
I think Jesus does offer us one clue as to how we should respond to unforeseen disaster.
In Luke 13, Luke recounts a time when the tower of Siloam fell and killed 18 people. People who witnessed the disaster were trying to come up with all sorts of explanations (the dead were worse sinners, Jerusalem was more holy, etc.).
Jesus replied, "No, but unless you repent, you too will all perish."
The message to us all is not that those who died were worse than us, or that Haiti was more evil than the United States, but that we should all see such disasters, and repent of OUR sins, for we will face judgment some day as well
TO: Brian, et al.
RE: Good Point....
I think Jesus does offer us one clue as to how we should respond to unforeseen disaster.
Luke 13....the tower of Siloam....
Jesus replied, "No, but unless you repent, you too will all perish." -- Brian
...that.
And after reading Adam's creds, as posted here, I have to wonder what denomination he is a 'minister' of. I ask because I know a fellow who is a 'minister', but not of Christ. And the title of this blog can be interpreted a number of different ways.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]
I wonder if it ever occurred to you to think that perhaps both Hitler and Stalin were purposely allowed to be in power in order to give a lesson to humanity in regards to the evils of eugenics as well as putting man at the center of worship instead of God?
I do not subscribe to the charismatic theology that Pat Robertson adheres to. I also do not subscribe to the liberal theology that God is all love and never any discipline. God may be beyond our comprehension, how he wishes us to live however is not.
Neither Hitler nor Stalin suddenly showed up in the 1930's, the philosophical framework for both went back to the early 1800's and both grow out of the chaos and deliberate anti-religion of the French Revolution, ultimately two sides of the same coin. At more than a few turns humans had the opportunity to turn from philosophies that not only would cause the death of millions, but to also cause suffering that is truly beyond comprehension. One could very easily make the argument that God simply allowed Free Will to be exercised here and the ultimate result of that to become reality, all done as a matter of discipline. Despite what many, even misguided Christians believe, Nazi policy was not based in Christian morality, it was based on Progressive morality which aped religious morality.
No one can argue the world did not change substantially after WWII, nor that the philosophy of the Nazi's was discredited. Nor when one reads the history of eugenics should one wonder why it had to be discredited. As humans I think we like to think God would never be so, well mean. One wonders however, how many were ultimately saved because of the horror we have come to know as WWII. And I don't mean saved just spiritually. God didn't cause either Hitler or Stalin, he simply didn't step in. He allowed a philosophy that deliberately denied the existence of God because one could not scientifically establish his presence to come to it's logical conclusion.
And yet as rebellious children the lessons learned from WWII, are not always the lessons we really should have learned. What a shame.
A Christian friend of mine once commented "Don't blame God for Earthquakes if you build your house on a fault zone."
I think this is true. Between moving continents and protecting your life, I think God will move continents.
God doesn't single us out for disasters -- but he gives us the strength to handle them with grace.
...and if you live in a place that God is moving for Heavens sake, build an Earthquake resistant house! (Yes, geologists can tell you that *san francisco* *cough*cough*)
I'm stunned to see commenters here continue to find ways to defend what Pat Robertson said.
What's wrong with the explanation that Haiti suffered the earthquake because it's on a fault line? And that the results were worse because Haiti is a poor country, for a variety of reasons.
Why is it hard for people to simply accept that. To see deliberation in everything that happens to people is narcissistic. It is to deny the existence of the category of "accident."
The more one thinks in this vein, the more clearly it appears that this is the tendency of the self-centeredness of creatures rather than the wisdom of the universe and the modus operandi of God. Did God have some higher purpose in hitting my thumb with a hammer? Was it part of his grand plan that the tiny particles of earth ended up in a certain configuration as the mud caked on my boot? Did his careful plan demand a child to be maimed and left motherless after a fire caused by an inconsistency in wiring material missed by quality control 20 years ago?
Let me be clear: I am not attempting a discussion on the problem of evil; I am simply saying that if one eliminates a self-regarding perspective, one sees clearly that bad things happen because that's how the world is made. And the rain falls on the good and bad alike.
To think that the droplets must hit people in particular ways is projected self-consciousness tending toward philosophical paranoia.
Well said, but let me add something. Pat Robertson has made at least two separate deals with the devil himself. First, he had a diamond mining deal with Mobutu Sese Seko, who was dictator of Zaire at the time. It came out that his "Operation Blessing" planes, which were funded by charitable donations, were being used to haul mining equipment. That deal came to an end when Seko was run out. After that, he made a deal with Charles Taylor of Liberia. Taylor, at the time, was harboring al Qaeda members. And that was probably one of Taylor's better aspects. Robertson went on to defend Taylor and claim that he didn't know about all the bad Taylor was doing. Apparently Robertson pays no attention to the news, as it was public knowledge for the rest of us.
This isn't to mention the health shake and claim to be able to leg press a ton (the record is 1300lbs.), losing a discrimination lawsuit in 2001 over his forcing black employees to use a separate entrance, etc.
More info:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/julyweb-only/7-7-48.0.html
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050919/blumenthal
http://www.theperspective.org/patrobertson_taylor.html
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/aah/vaneck_10_4.htm
It's time for this guy to quit getting a pass from Christians, and for more Christians to stand up and say "he's not one of us". Thanks to the author here for a good start.
Ok, Pat Robertson is an idiot, and his comments as a faith healer and weather shaman are generally not helpful. On the other hand, when David took the census (2 Samuel 24:1 et seq.) 70,000 Israelites died as a result.
I heard about this and the first Biblical reference I thought about was Job's friends during his turmoil, whose logic was fairly simple.
God punishes the wicked. You are in utter ruin, and therefore punished, and must therefore be wicked.
The problem is that God often does similar looking things for different reasons, especially where suffering is concerned. Sometimes it could be because the afflicted, like Job, are living rightly, and are either being used to display God's strength, or are being prepared to reach others similarly afflicted.
Besides, the whole "Pact with the Devil" storyline has long annoyed me. It terribly cheesy and very bad theology. I find it doubtful the Devil would operate in this manner a lot.
A note about prophesy now that I think about it.
Firstly, false prophesy was punished by death, which means accuracy of predictions is a huge deal.
Secondly, as a corollary, one ought not speak for God unless one is ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that God gave them the message they are to speak.
As for the why for the Haitian disaster occurred, I don't know that. It could be to punish wickedness (although one does not need an actual diabolical pact to be wicked, it comes naturally.) It could also be a wake-up call for some and a trial for others.
"The problem is that God often does similar looking things for different reasons, especially where suffering is concerned. Sometimes it could be because the afflicted, like Job, are living rightly, and are either being used to display God's strength, or are being prepared to reach others similarly afflicted."
Yeah, it could be that, or maybe stuff just happens, which would be a simpler explanation.
If there's no discernible pattern in "God's actions" the theory starts to look like a post hoc rationalization of one's beliefs rather than a genuine understanding of the universe.
Christianity does not work this way. No part of scripture tells us that God intends to allow natural disasters to overcome any country that involves themselves in sin.
That is absurd. Do I really need to list examples of God sending natural disasters to destroy sinful places?
No, there's no precedent for this nonsense in Christianity. Sure, in the Old Testament God punished people as he saw fit, but the Bible doesn't establish a predictable formula for this sort of thing;
I can only wonder at what you're thinking. I'm assuming you're trying to argue against a view that all natural disasters are based on an area's collective sin?
It's one thing to call Robertson an ass, another to say his view is theologically unsound. Robertson thinks this particular disaster was God's retribution for sin. Virtually nobody agrees with him in this particular instance. But to argue that there's "no precedent" is absurd. There's an ample number of examples in the OT, and to a much lesser degree in the NT, of this type of retribution.
[blockquote]For starters, how did a bunch of Haitians find the Devil? Does he have a house around there, or is there a way to summon him that French slaves were privy to?[/blockquote]
Nice piece, I get the drift and I certainly sympathize but Does he have a house around there?
You keed, right? Did you perhaps not pick up in your readings that he has a house around pretty much everywhere?
[blockquote]So, I don't know where he is coming from.[/blockquote]
You should have put this at the top of your blog entry. The honesty would have been much more refreshing.
[blockquote]in my entire life, I've never met anyone, in church or elsewhere, who didn't roll their eyes when his name was mentioned.[/blockquote]
Probably true. Doesn't say much but I'm sure you're being honest here.
I am reminded of the Liberal pundit who following the election of GWB said something like "I don't see how he got elected. No one I know voted for him".
Of a kind? You be the judge.
For the record, I too think Robertson is a bit of a ding dong. But then I think little of many, many ministers in mainstream churches. Not all and certainly not most but definitely many.
The lesson here isn't "oh look what a 'tard Robertson is". The lesson is "Christianity is about your personal relationship with G-d and Christ Jesus". Let no televangelist or for that matter church you happen to attend get in between you and The Savior.
... and by the way, folks ... if you don't think Voodoo is a moral and spiritual stain beyond question, think again.
Just sayin'..
Scone: But, frankly, the man's theology is off and he needs to be held to account.
Held to account?
Pray tell ... how's that supposed to play out?
Anonymous,
You criticize my reference to Isaiah as specious, you call my process as "post modern", you refer to it a false humility, and then say this: Granted, we can't know Him perfectly--but--the whole purpose of God's revelation in Scripture is precisely so that we would know His mind, His plans, who He is, who we are--He even condescended to incarnate as one of us to make it absolutely clear.
It is your own arrogance that is post modern, not mine. Can you explain to me no beginning and no end? Can you explain to me the reason for a blood sacrifice of which only he could fulfill? How about how He spoke something into existence?
Can you explain to me why a righteous man like Job was punished, while evil men prosper? If you call yourself a theological scholar, perhaps you should read or reread Job 38 when Job demanded to know "the why" from God? Do you understand God better than Job? Or Paul, when he called it a mystery?
Men like you are scolds, who with an ounce of knowledge pretend to have the gift of forthtelling - a direct and special link to the mind of God. And like Pat Robertson, that my scholarly friend is Pat Robertson personified and epitomizes "post modern" thought.
If I am to error, let it be under the pretense of an attempt at humility for my humility sincere, for I know God disdains arrogance.
Well it's so nice to come across such an obviously intellectual group of Christians, who have the courage to abandon such archaic notions as divine wrath, divine retribution and divine judgment.
How evil fundamentalists like Pat Robertson can continue to claim, here in the 21st Century, that human actions can have supernatural consequences is beyond me.
That there are still people, living in this century, who could assert that the horror of post earthquake Haiti or the even greater horror of so called Hell or so called eternal damnation, could be the consequence of human decision and action is beyond incredible.
I applaud your enlightened position and your decision to join modernity.
Greg Marquez
goyomarquez@earthlink.net
TO: Idler
RE: Heh
I'm stunned to see commenters here continue to find ways to defend what Pat Robertson said. -- Idler
Might have something to do with your ignorance of what is written in that Old Book.
When was the last time you read it through? When was the last time you were actively and regularly involved in a Bible Study Group?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Stupid, adj., Ignorant and proud of it.]
@Chuck Pelto
Might have something to do with your ignorance of what is written in that Old Book.
You know, it's funny: radical Islamists make the same argument when I say I can't believe people are willing to slay civilians in the name of their religion, among other kinds of behavior and conceptions that were more understandable many centuries ago. And yet I DO know what's in "the Old Book."
Probably I should be out slaying Phillistines, avoiding bacon and calling for the death penalty for those who curse their parents. I'm sure you observe these guidelines.
Those radical Islam guys, like you, also seem to have a hard time absorbing the ideas I present, let alone taking a shot at actually refuting them.
So, is it your position that the whole notion of "accidents" is a mistake, and that every time a child suffers one it's God's retribution? Think about that and then perhaps we can converse like mutually respectful human beings.
What about Matthew 10:15, Mark 6:11 and Luke 10:12 or 2Peter 2:6?
However, Pat Robertson is both a fool and a false prophet, imo. I have no idea where he came up with this ugly tale or the idea that God would punish people for something their ancestors a couple of centuries ago did wrong. He should remember that God was willing to save Sodom and Gomorrah if 10 people could be found in them who were not wicked.
Sometimes I ponder the fact that without people who suffer from natural disasters, diseases, poverty, etc. through no fault of their own, many good Christians would have no object for their "charity." Personally, I think that we should leave judgment to him whose right it is to judge and treat all people as deserving of our compassion.
TO: Idler
RE: Apples v. Oranges
You know, it's funny: radical Islamists make the same argument when I say I can't believe people are willing to slay civilians in the name of their religion, among other kinds of behavior and conceptions that were more understandable many centuries ago. And yet I DO know what's in "the Old Book." -- Idler
Stupid analogy. And typical of the ignorant too.
But, since you claim to know what's in that Old Book, albeit you obviously haven't studied it, please....
...enlighten US as to what Christ was alluding to in that passage from Luke 13, cited earlier in this thread.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Jesus astonishes and overpowers sensual people. They cannot unite him to history, or reconcile him with themselves. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]
Chuck,
Clearly you don't LIKE the analogy, but where does it fail?
My point is not that Christianity is like Islam but that some Christians draw the wrong lessons from ancient texts if they take them literally.
Also, you clearly would rather dismiss me through "infidel" tests rather than address the issues I brought up. Why the evasion?
Do you think that the idea of "accidents" is an illusion? Do you think that every misfortune is an act of divine retribution. If not, then perhaps attributing Haiti's earthquake to God's displeasure over a specific act is not the best interpretation of scripture.
TO: All
RE: Idler
Clearly you don't LIKE the analogy, but where does it fail? -- Idler
Notice the unwillingness to answer any question asked of them. Also notice the continual evasion of answering any question by asking more questions and expected to get an answer.
Typical 'progressive' approach to 'discussion', i.e., there IS none.
This person is a waste of effort. And my allegation of 'stupid' stands affirmed.
'nuff said.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Liberals aren't. Progressives won't.]
P.S. STILL waiting for Adam to identify his 'denomination'. I note the use of the phrase "licensed minister" in his 'creds'. I recall that the non-Christian 'minister' I knew up here used the same phrase. THAT, instead of the more usual phrase of "ordained minister", which is typical of Christian ministers.
I have no idea where he came up with this ugly tale or the idea that God would punish people for something their ancestors a couple of centuries ago did wrong.
It's called "original sin", and it's a pretty common doctrine in mainstream Christianity.
I also don't know who's listening to him; in my entire life, I've never met anyone, in church or elsewhere, who didn't roll their eyes when his name was mentioned
Really?!? He founded the Christian Broadcast Network where on a daily basis he spews this bilge. He should be soundly rebuked.
As a Haitian what exactly should I be praying for?
Thanks for the earthquake and the experience? It's enriching. Thanks for sparing me but taking my wife and neighbor? Thanks for calling my neighbor home and leaving me in this squalor?
And thanks for allowing the Nazis (who didn't live up to the values of the Enlightenment) to exercise their freewill on so many people. What about the free will of the Jews?
What a muddled mess this is, reading the mind of God.
And if you say we can't know the mind of God, how do we know he's benevolent?
Why aren't Christian's, who are in on the secret, walking around in a constant state of bliss. You are saved. Neither pain nor death should sway your overwhelming certainty that God has it 'handled' and that soon you will be with him in heaven. Seems if I were certain of that I would never be sad or fearful or miss people when they die as they are with God and soon I will be too. Why is there depression or anxiety among Christians?
And if we are in 'God's' hands in this world what makes you think the next is gonna be any better?
Twisted knots.
Chuck,
You're a chuckle indeed, because you refuse to engage on the substance of arguments and instead insist on loyalty tests.
The truth is that they did make a pact with the devil.
Now the significance you put on that pact I guess has to do with whether you believe the devil is real or not.
But it is one of Haiti's founding myths.
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/small_axe/v009/9.2laroche.html
According to Haitian national history, the revolutionary war was launched on the eve of a religious ceremony at a place in the north called Bwa Kayiman (Bois Caiman, in French). At that ceremony on August 14, 1791, an African slave named Boukman sacrificed a pig, and both Kongo and Creole spirits descended to possess the bodies of the participants, encouraging them and fortifying them for the upcoming revolutionary war. Despite deep ambivalence on the part of intellectuals, Catholics, and the moneyed classes, Vodou has always been linked with militarism and the war of independence and, through it, the pride of national sovereignty.
So, yeah if there is a devil, Haiti made a pact with it. Might explain why even though Haiti and the Dominican Republic share the same island, the Dominican Republic has been far more successful.
Might explain why even though Haiti and the Dominican Republic share the same island, the Dominican Republic has been far more successful.
Or it might be economic systems. I'll take Occam's explanation on this one.
Or maybe the supernatural uses the natural to accomplish its goals, D. Tom.
Unless God himself has spoken to you audibly, saying "Mount your rooftop and announce coming event [not already come] that will herald my impending judgment for [blank]," I'm of the opinion that no Christian is ever in the position to declare whether or not a bad happening is the judgment of God, and would be wise to never even say that it might be. (Cf. Brian's post 7:37 AM, and Matthew 5:45)
The thinking Christian's response is simple: Love and compassion. Aid and shelter. Introduction to the greatest benevolence of all, that which begets eternal life.
That said, Mr. Robertson's reference to a pact with the devil (as has been pointed out) is not some obscure myth. In a pre-earthquake report from an organization from Haiti, I heard about a Haitian pastors meeting wherein the local pastors believe that Satan has a hold on Haiti from that pact and conditions in the place will not get better until they reclaim the land. (Also interesting to note: this organization that I support has three orphanages in Port-au-Prince, in startlingly close proximity to the epicenter, but they have reported back no casualties! Praise God!)
I know that Haiti has a long history of poverty -- more poverty than Americans can imagine -- and I can give you the list of historical reasons as to why they are so indigent. But Job's cattle were taken away by raiders, a rather natural explanation; they didn't disappear into a time vortex.
I've never had much respect for Pat Robertson. But I watched the quote in context. It was not, at least to my interpretation, a statement with the meaning "They made a pact with a devil AND THIS IS THEIR DESERVED JUDGMENT, BWA-HA-HA-HA!" It looks to me he was painting a picture of their long-standing history of disasters and poverty, in the midst of an effort to raise more relief. A relief number is flashing across the bottom of the scream, and though he concludes that the solution is praying for the people of Haiti to come to Christ, he ends with, "but right now we need to help these suffering people, and the suffering is unimaginable." (See video)
It makes me wonder if other statements made by Mr. Robertson that have caused my lack of respect toward him were actually so deplorable in context.
Compare and contrast with Danny Glover, who sees the earthquake as the ire of Gaia as a result of a failed climate conference in Copenhagen. He uses the disaster as an example of "See?! See what happens when you do not believe in climate change?!" That's reprehensible.
In any case, he who has helped raise as much to Haiti relief as Pat Robertson, cast the first stone.
TO: Jared
RE: Interesting....
In a pre-earthquake report from an organization from Haiti, I heard about a Haitian pastors meeting wherein the local pastors believe that Satan has a hold on Haiti from that pact and conditions in the place will not get better until they reclaim the land. (Also interesting to note: this organization that I support has three orphanages in Port-au-Prince, in startlingly close proximity to the epicenter, but they have reported back no casualties! Praise God!) -- Jared
....reports, those.
Got some URLs I can refer to?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Lord is a might tower, the faithful run to and they are saved.]
No. I know someone personally involved in the ministry's efforts. That's the report he got from a primary source.
Before you make such sweeping generalities such as: "No part of scripture tells us that God intends to allow natural disasters to overcome any country that involves themselves in sin." You might want to read Revelation 6,8 and 16 for starters.
Also, here is an article that might interest your readers that discusses the actual point of what Pat Robertson said.
http://action.afa.net/Blogs/BlogPost.aspx?id=2147491158
TO: Jared
RE: Okay....
No. I know someone personally involved in the ministry's efforts. That's the report he got from a primary source. -- Jared
....please ask them to get their story up on the web somewhere, where we can all access it.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
TO: Anonymous
RE: The Link
Good information there.
It is my considered opinion that all these people who are dog-piling on Pat Robertson, in truth, are (1) ignorant and proud of it, i.e., my working definition of 'stupid' and (2) hate God.
That includes our good friend the BlogFather.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]
To Chuck Pelto:
Ignorant and proud of it?
Hate god?
It is horrifying to see someone who claims to know the word of god spew such vile rot. If you can be sure of anything, be sure that Jesus Christ would be sick to the stomach reading what you have just said.
Also the claims that anyone who disagrees with you just doesn't read the bible are so pathetically laughable i do not understand how anyone with even the slightest inclination towards honesty could let themselves type something so patently false.
Your posts reek of pride, ignorance and arrogance. I strongly suggest you re-evaluate yourself and your relationship with christ, because you can be damn sure robertson and yourself defending him is doing the Kingdom of God no favours.
What, you think i came across a little to strong or sure of my position? Think about how you felt reading this the next time you are about to claim to know the will of God. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.
Wow Anonymous.
That's a pretty courageous response for someone who wishes to remain anonymous.
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